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+(19:09:29) sajolida: then let's start with the first point:
+(19:09:36) sajolida: - Volunteers to handle "Hole in the roof (" tickets this month
+(19:09:58) sajolida: Everybody please have a look at this Redmine view and speak up if you think you can help with any of these...
+(19:10:46) sajolida: let me post the list, hi hi!
+(19:11:14) nodens: Still trying to wrap my head around #8447
+(19:11:20) masha: I won't volunteer for any
+(19:11:32) nodens: (Bug #8447 ( Persistent data is not erased when persistence features are disabled)
+(19:11:35) spriver: where's Tailsbot?
+(19:11:42) masha: on strike
+(19:11:45) nodens: (no tailsbot T T)
+(19:11:47) sajolida: Bug #5447: Fix DVD eject at shutdown
+Bug #6907: ikiwiki po plugin does not play well with inline directives
+Bug #8447: Persistent data is not erased when persistence features are disabled
+Bug #8690: tails-install-iuk's output is not forwarded to the Upgrader error reporting
+Bug #8897: The link to persistence documentation in tails-persistence-setup doesn't trigger any user-visible action
+Bug #10987: Tails Installer sometimes fails with: No support for modifying a partition a table of type `PMBR'
+Bug #12146: Intermediary Tails is not seen as a bootable device on MacBook Pro
+Feature #5340: Analyze Jake FOCI12 paper
+Feature #5975: Update design documentation about network fingerprinting
+Feature #7102: Evaluate how safe haveged is in a virtualized environment
+Feature #7700: Have a distribution mechanism for the revocation certificate of our signing key
+Feature #10022: Have experts review our revocation mechanism of Tails signing key
+(19:12:10) Tailsbot hat den Raum betreten.
+(19:12:23) u: no time until ... puhh
+(19:12:39) spriver: hi Tailsbot!
+(19:12:40) sajolida: same here: no time until ... puhh
+(19:12:53) intrigeri: I'll try to triage #10987 (already on my plate): I'm pretty sure it will disappear once we stop supporting anything older than Buster.
+(19:12:54) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #10987: Tails Installer sometimes fails with: No support for modifying a partition a table of type `PMBR'
+(19:13:14) intrigeri: aka #15010
+(19:13:15) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #15010: Installer: get rid of workaround for udisks bug#418 in SetFlags()
+(19:13:17) spriver: I actually printed the paper from #5340 and started reading it but I found it quite boring and obvious so far
+(19:13:17) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #5340: Analyze Jake FOCI12 paper
+(19:13:31) sajolida: intrigeri, jvoisin: anything to add?
+(19:13:35) sajolida: spriver: cool!
+(19:13:39) jvoisin: nope
+(19:13:59) intrigeri: nope, that's all for me. one is more than enough.
+(19:14:48) sajolida: the next point is: Volunteers to handle important tickets flagged for next release, but without assignee
+(19:14:53) sajolida:*&f%5B%5D=&c%5B%5D=priority&c%5B%5D=subject&c%5B%5D=category&c%5B%5D=cf_15&c%5B%5D=assigned_to&c%5B%5D=cf_9&group_by=status&t%5B%5D=
+(19:15:27) sajolida: the two relevant tickets seem to be:
+(19:15:44) sajolida: #13541: Tor still sometimes fails to bootstrap in the test suite ← Test suite guys, what's up with this one?
+(19:15:46) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #13541: Tor still sometimes fails to bootstrap in the test suite
+(19:16:24) intrigeri: corrected target version on another ticket.
+(19:16:30) sajolida: #13649: Decide what to do with Memory Hole in Thunderbird ← spriver, u, intrigeri: you've been active on this ticket, do you think that the discussion is prepared enough and worth to have during this meeting?
+(19:16:31) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #13649: Decide what to do with Memory Hole in Thunderbird
+(19:16:54) u: ouhla, lemme see
+(19:16:59) intrigeri: I'll look at the 1st question first.
+(19:17:13) sajolida: oops, i think the version numbers haven't been updated on Redmine
+(19:17:14) sajolida: ...
+(19:17:28) spriver: sajolida: I haven't looked at it in detail for some time now
+(19:17:50) intrigeri: dropping the target version on #13541
+(19:17:57) intrigeri: sajolida: what?
+(19:18:04) intrigeri: sajolida: I did update all that. no?
+(19:18:14) sajolida: "Release Manager View: 3.4 (" → points to 3.5 tickets
+(19:18:26) u: memory hole discussion sounds doable
+(19:18:26) emmapeel hat den Raum verlassen (Connection failed: connection closed).
+(19:18:28) intrigeri: aaah, in the custom queries. right, I didn't do that.
+(19:18:33) sajolida: i think the problem is only on the label of the view
+(19:18:34) emmapeel hat den Raum betreten.
+(19:18:41) intrigeri: sajolida: I'll fix it.
+(19:18:57) emmapeel: test
+(19:19:00) sajolida: ok, so we're done with *this point* of the agenda and might come back to Memory Hole in the discussions
+(19:19:01) sajolida: thanks!
+(19:19:03) u: ohai emmapeel
+(19:19:23) sajolida: meta: i have two fingers with fresh wounds, so i'm typing a bit slower than usual :)
+(19:19:36) sajolida: next point is: Availability and plans until the next meeting
+(19:19:36) masha: ok
+(19:20:06) sajolida: next meeting in Wednesday January 3
+(19:20:17) emmapeel: ill be around, currently doing frontdesk
+(19:20:27) intrigeri: availability: I have two sprints & lots of work sessions + meetings scheduled, which will make my availability lower.
+(19:20:47) masha: emma: no, actually I'll be doing frontdesk :)
+(19:20:53) emmapeel: oh true
+(19:20:56) emmapeel: hehe
+(19:21:00) intrigeri: plans: unclear what I'll be able to do on top of all these scheduled things.
+(19:21:01) nodens: for me, probably low availability, this time of the year again: usually lot of $dayjob stuff + personnal.
+(19:21:03) u: sajolida: we'll add this to our computations of keystroke dynamics scripts!
+(19:21:09) spriver: I'll be around, but don't expect too much output from me during the weeks, maybe a bit more during weekends
+(19:21:09) u: (two fingers)
+(19:21:30) masha: I should be around for help desk, and hopefully more time to deal with tickets
+(19:21:58) muri: plans: curate monthly report, visit leipzig, look into errbot again, now that the only dependency has been sponsored
+(19:22:01) u: i am available for meetings scheduled with intrigeri and here and there, but I need to take a bit of a step back until january
+(19:22:36) goupille hat den Raum verlassen.
+(19:22:50) intrigeri: u: we can totally postpone some of that. you need less work.
+(19:22:54) intrigeri: u: as you wish.
+(19:23:08) nodens: plans: bugging alioth people to be able to move openpgp-applet away from redmine and alioth (#14982)
+(19:23:09) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #14982: Fix OpenPGP Applet vs. Tails ticket tracking workflow
+(19:23:10) sajolida: - VeraCrypt UX sprint (December 8-10): The recruiting for the test is going very well (apart from me forgetting to Bcc: ~60 people) but I still have to process the data from the online survey (1012 answers!)
+- Technical writing sprint with cbrownstein (December 25-27): "Improve our installation instructions" from our roadmap (spriver: I owe you an email about that!)
+- Close the new download page story.
+- Catch up with everything I left behind because of the new download page (sorry!).
+(19:23:20) nodens: (and the HitR if I can)
+(19:24:01) spriver: sajolida: okay (:
+(19:24:43) u: intrigeri: really? let's do the first meeting and then decide if we follow up on it
+(19:25:01) u: intrigeri: we want to work on a plan - which is the biggest part of the work right?
+(19:25:18) sajolida: intrigeri: which two sprints (if I may ask...)
+(19:25:23) intrigeri: u: whatever can easily be potsponed and allows you to relax a bit is good
+(19:25:28) u: sajolida: ASP
+(19:25:32) intrigeri: sajolida: Additional Software Packages + sysadmin team.
+(19:25:37) u: intrigeri: ok! well, i would like that
+(19:25:39) sajolida: yeah!
+(19:26:11) sajolida: is everybody done with sharing their plans?
+(19:26:14) u: wait
+(19:26:34) intrigeri: u: alles mit der Ruhe (however it shall be written)
+(19:26:47) masha: yep, almost can't wait to see you at 34C3!
+(19:26:49) u: nodens: concerning the openpgp applet, i've modified all changelog entries for tails-installer by adding Closes: Tails#123456
+(19:26:50) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #12345: Test ISO build reproducibility with varying CPU type
+(19:27:08) u: nodens: and i think you could do the same with the openpgpapplet
+(19:27:14) u: you just need to think about it
+(19:27:22) u: before preparing pavckages
+(19:27:33) u: no need to move all the things around imo
+(19:27:37) u: intrigeri: :=)))
+(19:27:46) u: intrigeri: let's reschedule per email then
+(19:28:07) intrigeri: u: there's no single occurrence of this problem in openpgp-applet fyi :)
+(19:29:04) u: intrigeri: well, that was the case in tails-installer before too
+(19:29:20) u: well, i'll comment on the ticket
+(19:29:44) nodens: u: mhmm, not sure I follow completely the point. Redmine reads debian changelog ?
+(19:30:08) nodens: anyway we can discuss that at another time, yes, please update the ticket :)
+(19:30:14) intrigeri: u: thanks. make sure you check the actual problem this ticket is about, as right now I think you're discussing something different.
+(19:30:46) intrigeri: (now I'll shut up with off-topic stuff until the plans/availability thing is done at least)
+(19:30:54) nodens: (I'll still need to move the homepage of openpgp-applet anyway)
+(19:31:22) u: intrigeri: yeah i thought so
+(19:32:07) intrigeri: (it's not clear for me who we are waiting for. is it u, who wrote "wait"? or a deadlock/misunderstanding?)
+(19:32:19) sajolida: ping me when you're done with your chit-chat :)
+meanwhile others can start reading the monthly report and look for missing bits:
+(19:32:31) u: i'm done
+(19:32:36) u: i just wanted to talk to nodens
+(19:32:43) u: sorry.
+(19:32:47) sajolida: cool! so everybody check the report for missing bits
+(19:32:57) u: i already added the bits i knew about this afternoon
+(19:33:03) masha: hot topics are about to be in the report, we just had a meeting before this one
+(19:33:21) spriver: gotta run now, see you all
+(19:33:40) emmapeel: yes, i will add the frontdesk hot tpics tomorrow
+(19:33:43) u: cu spriver!
+(19:34:05) intrigeri: already added my bits and can't think of anything missing that *I* worked on.
+(19:34:06) u: emmapeel: beware of adding hot pics!
+(19:34:19) emmapeel: hehehe
+(19:34:22) intrigeri: sajolida: will you add something about the new WebExtension?
+(19:34:48) sajolida: i didn't plan that, it will before for the report of December
+(19:35:03) intrigeri: cool!
+(19:35:04) sajolida: i thought that write "work in progress" for November didn't make much sense
+(19:35:16) u: sajolida: i think it does make sense
+(19:35:42) u: sajolida: i mean there was a first release and it fixes problems for people with >FF57
+(19:35:47) u: so we should mention it
+(19:36:01) intrigeri: u: that was in December, I think that's why sajolida wrote this above.
+(19:36:16) sajolida: yeap, the release happened on December 3
+(19:36:44) sajolida: added "Tor & Tails meetup in Mexico City." :)
+(19:37:24) masha: soon a summit in Sinaloa ;)
+(19:37:33) u: ah ok
+(19:37:36) u: sure!
+(19:38:02) masha: next?
+(19:39:03) sajolida: next point in the agenda is...
+(19:39:16) sajolida: Discussions! with nothing in the list...
+(19:39:34) sajolida: so if someone has a discussion prepared already, speak up now!
+(19:39:53) sajolida: otherwise we'll do to the Memory Hole thingie is u feels like it
+(19:40:09) sajolida: #13649
+(19:41:36) sajolida: as a reminder: discussions should be prepared, and that means the ticket should be assigned to the person responsible for preparing them
+(19:41:46) u: So let me explain this a little bit
+(19:42:00) u: I did not prepare this, and it was not on the agenda but I can explain.
+(19:42:07) sajolida: please, i forgot what Memory Hole was about </joke>
+(19:42:12) u: The new version of Torbirdy ships a feature called Memory hole.
+(19:42:32) u: This feature aims at not only encoding email text, but also the subject as well as referrers.
+(19:42:50) u: this is done using some kind of encrypted meta headers and sending out emails with a generic subject.
+(19:43:06) u: The mail client is now responsible for decrypting and displaying the meta headers.
+(19:43:09) intrigeri: (editing anonym's last comment to update the links that are currently broken)
+(19:43:42) u: This works partly inThunderbird, subjects can be decrypted while being sent with the generic subject line.
+(19:44:09) u: But the referrers are broken, as the feature is not yet implemented and it has not even been defined in the RFC in detail yet.
+(19:44:32) u: And these encrypted subjects also don't not work with Schleuder.
+(19:44:59) masha: hum
+(19:45:07) u: Now, in the Debian package, I've not disabled Memory Hole, because tech savvy people, running Debian unstable or testing, can disable it themselves if they want to.
+(19:45:55) u: in Tails we still use an older version of Torbirdy and I have not prepared a backport for Stretch in which I could disable this feature to make it work for most people.
+(19:46:18) u: we could also just have the Debian backport ship Memory Hole but disable it in Tails.
+(19:46:23) u: this is what this ticket is about.
+(19:46:29) u: intrigeri: anything i forgot?
+(19:46:51) intrigeri: u: all this sounds right.
+(19:47:17) intrigeri: the ticket also has some discussions about more general strategy & what our role could be in this.
+(19:47:22) u: And one other detail: we dont know how many other email clients have implemented the feature
+(19:47:28) sajolida: so right now when I'm sending encrypted emails from Tails I'm sending them with Memory Hole?
+(19:47:30) intrigeri:
+(19:47:34) u: sajolida: no
+sajolida spriver
+(19:47:47) u: sajolida: you use an older version of Torbirdy that does not have it yet
+(19:48:02) sajolida: ah!
+(19:48:05) u: but at some point we will want to update Tails' Torbirdy version.
+(19:48:12) u: and thus we should decide what to do
+(19:48:16) intrigeri: if that list of implementations (^) is up-to-date, then it's mostly draft / experiments stuff apart of Enigmail.
+(19:48:38) sajolida: but i know that i can *read* Memory Hole emails since some recent version (the subject line is rewritten)
+(19:48:54) intrigeri: OK, let me clarify:
+(19:49:15) u: sajolida: yes, the subject line works, but you dont get reply threads for example
+(19:49:16) intrigeri: the Memory Hole code is in Enigmail, disabled by default. What recent Torbirdy does is that it enables it.
+(19:49:18) u: sajolida: and this sucks
+(19:49:26) sajolida: right
+(19:49:26) u: intrigeri: thanks, indeed!
+(19:49:38) sajolida: intrigeri: useful clarification, thanks!
+(19:49:41) u: sajolida: and the subject line decryption does not work in Schleueder
+(19:49:56) u: so to me right now, this is unusable
+(19:50:14) spriver hat den Raum verlassen (Connection failed: connection closed).
+(19:50:22) nodens: I think the paint is definitely not dry on this feature... I would leave it disabled, because email issues are often a helpdesk nightmare (less tech-savvy people understand very little about it IME)
+(19:51:11) u: first the RFC needs to be finished. then MUAs need to implement it. then we can enable it for our users.
+(19:51:17) u: imo.
+(19:51:21) sajolida: +1, i would also track (or ask) Schleuder's plan to support it
+(19:51:27) u: sajolida: i did already
+(19:51:34) sajolida: yeah!
+(19:51:43) u:
+(19:51:54) intrigeri: I've already proposed a strategy in two comments (3 & 11) on the ticket so I won't repeat myself, but FTR this still holds (but it needs a $DATE/$DEADLINE). I can live with other options like disabling it and not doing anything else for now, though.
+(19:53:10) u: they moved the draft to
+(19:53:12) intrigeri: sajolida: dear host, it's not clear to me if we're assuming everyone has read the ticket (that is not too long and sums up the problems & options quite well IMO).
+(19:53:23) intrigeri: u: updated that link already :)
+(19:53:44) sajolida: since u started with a summary, i assumed that people didn't read the full ticket
+(19:54:08) sajolida: intrigeri: do you think i should encourage people to do so?
+(19:54:27) u: FTR intrigeri proposes "to announce that we'll enable Memory Hole by default in Tails at $DATE, as a way to encourage MUA authors to add support for it. " in ~ 2 years.
+(19:54:33) u: i think i agree with this idea.
+(19:54:52) u: and I'm ready to move this forward myself by talking to the relevant people
+(19:55:07) intrigeri: sajolida: I'm not sure.
+(19:55:17) intrigeri: u: like Outlook developers? :))
+(19:55:42) u: haha no.
+(19:55:50) nodens: well outlook user can't read pgp-encrypted emails easily anyway
+(19:55:59) intrigeri: last schleuder update is i.e. paz is not very motivated anymore after having tried Memory Hole.
+(19:56:12) sajolida: i don't really know the state of Memory Hole but it might be too prematurate to say we'll use this deadline strategy
+(19:56:13) u: intrigeri: i mean enigmail/thunderbird/mutt/emacs
+(19:56:15) nodens: I'm ok with the deadline idea
+(19:56:29) u: sajolida: right..
+(19:56:45) nodens: with maybe a "checkpoint" before, see if there is any blocker at that time
+(19:56:49) u: what about we set ourselves a deadline to reach out to these people and then talk about it again?
+(19:56:51) sajolida: i would personally like to be neither part of the "pioneers that suffer from being on the edge" nor the "last to do the change and slowing down everybody"
+(19:57:10) intrigeri: sajolida: agreed.
+(19:57:42) sajolida: so i would postpone this part of the discuss (when we enable it again) for at least 1 more year
+(19:58:18) nodens: and maybe it's better communication to say "hey, we would like to enable this nifty feature at this point in time, please help us" rather than "yeah we enabled it. So what. Fix your software" ;)
+(19:58:23) intrigeri: There's quite some reluctance to the deadline strategy and it might be premature and too bold. I'm fine with postponing for 1 more year.
+(19:58:59) u: so this means that we agree to disable it right now?
+(19:59:00) sajolida: (... leaving a bit more time for others to comment before summing up a consensus proposal)
+(19:59:04) intrigeri: but then it gives implementors 1 less year to do their job, so perhaps we could already tweet something about it, like we're considering it seriously and will reconsider in a year?
+(19:59:20) u: intrigeri: ack
+(19:59:20) nodens: +1 intrigeri
+(20:00:03) intrigeri: + encourage them to look into it for their MUA.
+(20:00:11) masha: +1
+(20:00:20) sajolida: a tweet won't change much i guess
+(20:00:22) intrigeri: (and then we let the autocrypt community retweet this & do their propaganda etc.)
+(20:00:26) jvoisin: (The cert for the offical webpage of memory hole has an invalid cert…)
+(20:00:40) intrigeri: sajolida: not by itself, but it gives arguments to the people who are pushing for modernpgp stuff.
+(20:00:55) sajolida: right, as a tool in other people's propaganda
+(20:01:26) intrigeri: it's different to say "look I wrote this spec please implement it" than "look I wrote this spec and Tails wants to use it, please implement it" :)
+(20:01:57) u: ack
+(20:02:15) sajolida: all-right, so here is my summary:
+(20:02:18) u: i can do that, sometime in the beginning of 2018
+(20:02:21) sajolida: Proposal:
+- We disable Memory Hole for outgoing emails.
+- We wait 1 more year before discussing again a strategy one when to enable it back.
+- Keep an eye open on what other MUA and encrypted mailing list software are doing.
+- Tweet about how cool Memory Hole is and that we want to enable soon but are blocked with other software.
+(20:02:49) sajolida: s/blocked with/blocked by/
+(20:03:03) sajolida: anything else to add, reformulate, discuss?
+(20:03:18) intrigeri: ACK.
+(20:03:27) nodens: all good
+(20:03:35) ***jvoisin nods
+(20:03:49) u: ack
+(20:03:51) intrigeri: (and then I got to go, other plans tonight. thanks for this meeting, see you tomorrow or more likely on Wednesday)
+(20:03:54) sajolida: ok, after fixing some typos, for your notes u:
+(20:03:58) sajolida: Proposal:
+- We disable Memory Hole for outgoing emails.
+- We wait 1 more year before discussing again a strategy one when to enable it back.
+- Keep an eye open on what other MUA and encrypted mailing list software are doing.
+- Tweet about how cool Memory Hole is and that we want to enable soon but are blocked with other software.
+(20:04:14) u: thanks!
+(20:04:23) sajolida: cool, thanks for the nice and productive meet